Resilience with the Fairy Godmother
Updated: Apr 9, 2021
The Fairy Godmother of all Fairy Godmothers! Rhonda D'Ambrosio of Mental Health and Recruitment spoke with me about:
Have a listen and make sure to subscribe to stay updated! Transcript below.
You can find the full LIVE here on my YouTube Channel or you can catch them as they happen via my LinkedIn.
Can't Miss Links from the podcast:
- The Calling Bullsh*t On Your Diet (Plan)
- Mental Health In Recruitment
- Mental Health In Recruitment - LinkTree
- Thriving at work - The Stevenson / Farmer review of mental health and employers
Rhonda and I have been chatting it up for five minutes thinking we will live but we were not live. So for those of you who are there, please let us know if you can, you can hear us pop it in the comment section I should be able to see it. But hopefully we're live because hey, this is an important topic.
I already knocked over a glass of water. LinkedIn is having technical difficulties. Hey, what better topic? Hi, LinkedIn!
Please let us talk about resilience. So you might learn a thing or two from us. All right, so everybody welcome back to the Get Your Sh*t Together Live Show on LinkedIn. Or just Get Your Sh*t Together Live Show. I'm here with Rhonda D'Ambrosio, the fairy godmother of all fairy godmothers. And I am so happy that you're here to talk about a topic that has been done to death. High five! But could you please introduce yourself because I can't I can't do it just justice. I mean, you're the fairy godmother.
You know, you put me on the spot and it's it's never as good as it should be. You know, I've suddenly got this new title of fairy godmother, which I don't dislike, you know, as long as I can be more Galinda, Good Witch Fairy Godmother than old one from Cinderella. I'm Rhonda D'Ambrosio. I've worked in the recruitment industry for 24 years, I, I would class myself or I've been classed by others as resilience and quality of thinking expert. And I'm also the founder of Mental Health In Recruitment and not not for profit, and not for profit, driving understanding to the awareness of mental health in the industry and what it actually means. So we're really having a day of it today. But can we just not have a chat and pretend? Are we are we live? Do we know we're alive? Is--
We're 100% live. I've got the comments coming through. Knowing that we're live. So the first one didn't want a bar of us. But right now this live is this live's going, this-- it's live, it actually is live.
It's live, we can't actually speak or get our words out properly. Brilliant.
We're having a good day, we're having a good day. I think you know what you and I met about a year ago, and we started talking about resilience a year ago, because it was locked down number one, or it was just about to be locked down number one from from memory. And we spoke a little bit about resilience, we're talking about, okay, people gonna have to be resilient in this time. And I remember speaking to a magnitude of people during that time, they're like, yep, you know, we just gotta get through the next four weeks, six weeks, and you know what, we'll bounce back and everything will be alright, it's gonna be really resilient. Grit my teeth and bare it and lo and behold a year later we're still in another lockdown. So I think resilience, even though it is something that's spoken a lot about, I think it's something that we have to revisit, and we do have to have a conversation about especially looking forward as well. We definitely need to look at burnout. And we need to look at people coming back into the workplace as well. But Rhonda, what do you think about resilience? You know, you and I chatted about it a lot, but what is your take on the last year and resilience?
Gonna say something controversial. So sick to death of hearing about it, and it's a living, you know, oh, let's be more resilient. How do we be more resilient? We need resilience more than ever. And, of course, I absolutely agree with that. But I do you think that the the understanding and how we're defining resilience right now and and how as we have in the last 12 months has definitely changed, and we've gone on a journey with it. So, you know, just like we had unprecedented and just like we had to pivot, you know, resilience has thrown itself in there a little bit as well. And I hate to say it, I think mental health has, you know, I firmly believe, you know, I'm a I've been talking about this topic for eight years now. Mental health is a pandemic in itself, and how we approach it, address it and look at it in the corporate world, for me is it needs to be a priority. And unfortunately, I think because of the situation we've been in there is a danger that some people are just blocking it out. It's just noise. This is just noise just ignore it. And it will we'll all get back together as soon as possible get back to normal as soon as possible.
Yeah, I actually I agree with that. I think what I've seen especially in the last 12 months is mental health has become a very big topic. It was already a pretty big topic before the the lockdown and before the pandemic. However, I do think we've merged them. And I think what companies have done is look looking at how they can support their team with mental health during the pandemic rather than actually you know, what the issues were already dead have just bubbled to the surface because people are working from home. They're you know, they're feeling a lot more uncertain, they're a lot more uncomfortable. There's a lot more things going on in their world, which is yes, making that stress and anxiety worse. However, is but it bubbled up to the surface just because when we go back to work and things go back to normal, whatever that is, whatever that looks like, doesn't necessarily mean that mental health issues are just going to mental like just magically disappear. I mean, you are the fairy godmother, but I do not think that you can make mental health issues disappear. I mean, you've been watching in this field for eight years, this is something that I've been doing for a number of years as well, the issues were already there, burnout was already an issue, stress was already an issue. Mental health was already a huge issue. It's just been exacerbated in the last 12 months.
I don't I think the actual differences in terms of performance and company, I think what we've done historically is we talked about resilience in terms of overcoming the challenges that we faced on the job. And now that in itself can be beneficial to us and make us stronger in the workplace. And I think the benefit now is we are linking those two things together, we're linking resilience more to that individual, personal, I like to talk about stress vulnerability piece. And that, you know, it's, again, it's a blessing in disguise, because I absolutely agree with you, you know, if you go back to the very first picture that mental health and recruitment put on their Instagram, it was, you know, mental health is for life, not just Coronavirus, which I stand by, however, the pandemic has definitely created a level of awareness that perhaps wasn't there before. And I talk about this a lot. Business owners, business leaders, managers have experience some of these, some of these setbacks themselves and have struggled themselves, which has made them perhaps more open to understanding the challenges that their employees and their workforce have been facing on a day to day basis. So I think I think like most things, there's two sides to it.
I think there is two sides to it. And I do think that mental health has, you know, definitely been come has become to the forefront of a lot of companies. And a lot of people are talking about it, I've seen some really awesome business leaders become incredibly vulnerable going, Oh my gosh, like, I'm working from home, I'm trying to homeschool, I'm trying to support my family like this is crazy. It's, you know, some people's, you know, overnight, their welds were turned upside down. And, you know, I think that being able to talk about that has been hugely beneficial. But I would love to see this actually continue, though, like the positivity around the mental health, especially in the corporate world, especially with latest being a bit more vulnerable. I would love to see that position, you know, go forward, do you think that we're going to go backwards? Or do you actually think we're going to be able to push forward with the mental health and keep the momentum going? Like, what do you think, especially when the resilience piece.
You know what, I do think we are going to push forward. And if we tie in resilience, it kind of it sits beautifully with the metaphor and the almost the interpretation I've always given to resilience, which is, you know, we know, it's our bounce back ability, it's our ability to overcome adversity and everything else. But you know, for a long time, I've defined resilience as a muscle, a muscle that we have to build, and we have to strengthen. And like all muscles, and like all, you know, all challenging situations, quite often we are dealing with stuff we've never dealt with before. And it's that stretch. And it's that I liken it to working out in the gym. You know, if you've if you work harder and in a different way than you've ever had to work before you strain that muscle, you pull that muscle you work that muscle, anybody that knows a lot about this will then understand the benefit in resting and then muscle coming back and being stronger. So that's why for me, I've always talked about resilience as a muscle and, and how, actually, we need to understand how to push it and strengthen it so that it goes a little bit further. And then I'll have to throw in the whole elastic band concept as well, it means that you can stretch that band further than you could the last time without it breaking. So I do think businesses are going to be in a position where it is on the agenda, they do understand it and they they now know more and understand more about pushing that elastic band for their people little bit further. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. I think that one of the best things that you said there, obviously I talk a lot about rest. And I talk about sleep and exercise and diet and how that can positively impact our mental health and how it can actually build resilience in itself. There's a lot of neuroscience that is coming out about actual doing hard exercise, actual hard exercise in the gym can actually build up mentally resilience as well as physical resilience. But I actually when I look at resilience, and then last year, some things that I've noticed that a lot of people are sort of doing is that they're not resting, they're going I have to be resilient. I have to keep going. I have to just sort of, you know, grit my teeth and bare it. On top of that we haven't been able to have proper holidays and I I would love to hear from people on LinkedIn. How many of you've kind of said, I'm just gonna wait until lockdowns over before I take a holiday. That's something that I have 100% heard but I actually think that we've taken when I talk to people about resilience, something that I'm hearing over and over again is that I've just got to suck it up. I've just got to go with it and in my head. That's not resilience. Resilience is like a you know a bit of bamboo. You look at it like a muscle I look at it like it's a bit of bamboo where, you know, I spent quite a bit of time in Japan a few years ago and I went to a bamboo forest and I saw when the wind was blowing, I'm looking at bamboo I'm like how is that's not snapping. If you look at bamboo, it just goes with with the wind and it bounces back. And that's how I I see resilience as being able to go with the flow, but not burn out, not take it, you know, not stretch it so far from the point where you actually snap the elastic band, because I think that's, I think a lot of people have done that.
Absolutely. And look, tie this back to March, April, May, when we were having those first conversations. And, you know, I can, I'm going to reference it to the recruitment industry, what I saw was a huge amount of innovation, and owners and leaders that are coming out and right, we're going to attack this in a different way, we're going to, we're going to apply ourselves here, we're going to work hard to create this opportunity. So make sure it was brilliant. There was innovation everywhere, there was collaboration everywhere. And I kept saying to, you know, company owners just be very, very cautious, because you're going gung ho into almost, you know, put the plasters on. So make sure that you're Yes, we're okay, we're looking after the business. But it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable. And that's what we do. But we're reacting to our inner survival instincts, we are trying to, you know, make sure that we are we can survive. It's that fight mode. And of course, we're not factoring in the fact that at some point, that's going to end that's going to end and then what do we do, and that those are the cycles that we've all been in, in the last year, you know, and the cycles of it and, you know, silly, silly example is, you know, I'm now back on lives back on LinkedIn, you know, my hair absolutely needs doing, I'm not a natural redhead, my nails have all fallen off, but I've gone through two or three cycles of it. So I'm a little bit more immune to it. It's like, are we you know, what, take me as you find me, at least I'm not in my pajamas today, gang. You know, we accept it, and we move forward. But that rest piece and that need to take stock to recover, to understand our learns, and to understand how we've got through these things, how we've coped with them, it's those kinds of insights that will give us the, the lay-- the layout, and the strategy to deal with these sorts of things in the future. And that's why for me, rest is so so important to rebuilding muscle.
You're, you absolutely are. And there's a lot of research coming out on the neuroscience, on the neuroscience side, actually talking about when you are having to be resilient, or even if you have to focus or if you're if you're doing something really difficult. That rest piece is where everything gets rebuilt. That's what you're building the new neural pathways. That's where you're building that neuroplasticity, which is all the new brain cells that you can learn different behaviors and different cognitive abilities. And that's really important. But without that rest, that resilient piece can't be there. You know, you can't sit there and think that you you know, what I always say is you can't sprint a marathon. And I feel like a lot of people have been trying to sprint a marathon this past year. And I just if you're right, you said a word that I always ask my clients, everyone that I speak to it's like, is what you're doing sustainable? Or is are you just thinking that for right now I can do this. But what about next week? How do you think you're gonna feel next week? And then asking employers is like, do you think this is realistic to keep asking your employees of obvious, do you think that's sustainable for them, you know, take yourself out of the equation as a as an employer, like you're going well, this is my business, you know, you're probably going to be more like more inclined to work longer hours, and you might have a bit more of the reserves, you might have a bit more resilience in your employees, because you're a business owner, when you're a business owner, you have how you've dealt, you've been dealt some cards, you've had to overcome certain things, and you probably are more resilient. So taking that aside, and actually being able to be a bit more empathetic and compassionate towards your employer employees by able to say, hey, like, is this sustainable for them? Because I think that's something that that's another conversation that I've had a couple of times with a few different people, which is, well, I can do it, why can't I? It's like, Well, yeah, we've not all had the same, like everywhere, where you sit today is your own journey. Everything, every step that you've taken, has gotten you to this point, every step someone else's take has got taken has gotten to them to that point. So you can't expect somebody to have been on the same path as you to experience the same things. Because our resilience does come from past experiences, and how we've managed them and how we've, how we've dealt with them, and being able to expect people to just sort of be able to be as resilient as you as unrealistic as well. And that's something that I really want to get across to business owners and anyone really, so that's a big part.
For me, you know, I've got no comment on it, you know, what I feel about it--we all have a different frame of reference for lots of different reasons. You know, for me, that's the importance of understanding why our brains the work we do, but something you just said there as well. I think the individuals, whether they're, you know, employees, whether they are the business owners, and leaders, they typically wear some of this stuff as a badge of honor. (Yeah.) You know, and I know you've talked about that in relation to burnout. And I'm talking about, you know, the fact that they've been they've been able to get through it, that, you know, the big one that I hear about our industry about the recruitment industry is people that have been around for three or four decades or so well, back in the day when I was doing it, but yeah, it is stressful. Yes, you know, it's hard. But the reality is that the world we live in is so, so different. Now (so different) that world then, that world where we didn't we after talking about this on clubhouse last week, we weren't always plugged in, we didn't have our emails on our phones, we weren't allowed to access the database. So when you left the office, when you stopped, you stopped. And that, again, is that rest piece that enabled those individuals to go into kick it to show up to be brilliant, because the world was a different different different time. And we have to adapt to that. And we have to look at that when we're considering our people and separating our own journey to their journey.
It doesn't make sense to look at where you were, you know, 20 years ago, in the industry, in any industry, realistically, I'm sort of lay the same foundation as for today. That doesn't make sense. We have to actually relay new information and new foundations to be able to better understand what we're dealing with today. Because what we're dealing with today is a different beast. You know, burnout has increased dramatically, dramatically in the last 5, 10 years. And I do think a lot of it has been the way that we work. I always talk about the 9-5 is dead. I'm in my head. I'm like, did it ever really exist? For a lot of millennials? No, not really, for most of us who are, you know, Millennials or Zoomers, whatever they call them these days, none of us really understood the nine to five, you know, we're always plugged in, we're always able to check out emails, we're always getting messages. You know, I speak to recruiters a lot. they're saying Oh, yeah, you know, I get messages on WhatsApp, you know, at 10pm at night from my client or candidate to have a chat, and I'll talk to them. That means you're on. Your brain isn't resting your brain is honestly Oh, it's just a message. It's like no, it's not, it's not just a message your brain isn't then thinking about that person's wants, needs and desires instead of actually going, I'm a human, I'm just gonna sit here, I'm gonna relax, I'm gonna have I'm gonna have a good time. It's not it's not doing that. And I think that that's something that a lot of business owners need to look at. And I think that there is a new generation of business leaders coming in that do get that to a certain extent. But then again, have we become resilient towards those types of messaging? And have we become resilient to not resting? And I would argue that I don't think we have---
You know, I think you're right, I think, you know, if you look at WhatsApp or any any of the the instant--platforms exists, it's accessible, it's available, we use it in those ways. And it and people think nothing of sending, you know, a message in the evening, and they think nothing of you know, I'll have stuff pop up from, you know, 9, 10, maybe even 11 o'clock. And it's, it's, we accept it. And I've worked really, really hard since Christmas, sort of turn notifications off or stuff like that also in emails, and, you know, not putting that pressure on myself to respond. Because I think it reigns in me throughout my life, you know, to be very in our industry, again, it's very, very service driven, you are going out of your way to offer really, really good service. And what we're doing is we're kind of meeting making an another rod for our own back by always being available always being accessible. And it's almost again, you almost feel like you're maybe you're not good at what you do, or that you're not giving the best service you possibly can, if you're always on and setting those boundaries is absolutely vital, in terms of self care, and managing this kind of stuff and managing your own levels without doubt.
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I think the boundaries, piece is really important. And I think that when we what, you know, if someone said comes to me and goes, I have to give, I have to be there for my clients, I always have to be there, you know, I've got to give this really good service. If I'm not, then someone else's, is going to take it from me. And that's coming from, you know, a very, a place of complete fear and a complete lack of trust, of understanding of your ability to be able to do your job. But I also then kind of counter argue that I go, Yeah, but if you're tired and you're frustrated, you're not thinking clearly, you're not able to make really good decisions, you kind of get stuck in the emotive response. And then you're going to become, you're going to become irritated, you're going to be reactionary, you're not going to be able to formulate a good response. And you're going to be problem solving, coming from a very different place, rather than from a logical calm place where it's going to make more sense to be able to solve a problem or to be there for that person or be there for what that person needs, if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we've, you know, really, really important part of that is, you know, quite often we expect people to work to that to the standards that we have ourselves to just because maybe we do do those things, and we might be that sort of person and we might just get unavailable Hey, you can message me It's fine. It doesn't impact me I'm good, I'm strong. I'm all those things. We then expect other people to respond in that image. And we feel very annoyed, frustrated and let down when they don't, without understanding that going back to what we said. We're all different. We're absolutely all different and that's some of the you know, the coaching that I do some of the biggest causes of frustration and biggest causes of those negative thinking patterns is that we're measuring people by our to our own standards.
And expectations is such a massive piece if you actually look at why a lot of people leave, get burnt out, disengage any type of if you're a business owner, and you're listening to this, this is really important reasons why staff leave is because they don't understand expectations, or you put an expectation on that person that's not realistic and not sustainable. And that for that person not to say that it's unrealistic and unsustainable for everyone, it might be unrealistic and sustainable for that person. And I think expectations is so important to understand, hang on a second, am I projecting my own expectations onto somebody else? That is completely unrealistic. Because what I can do and what you can do might be vastly different. And that's really unfair, or am I actually being reasonable. And there's something else going on here. And I think that being able to distinguish between the two, and that self awareness piece is so important when it comes to being a leader, and setting those expectations and understanding, hang on a second, what's realistic, and what's sustainable here? And actually having those conversations with yourself and with your team, and actually communicating expectations is really important. And not just going like it's a two way street.
Yeah, right. That's absolutely, and you know, just to go sideways on that, and we talked about the mental health and recruitment survey. And if remember, we sampled, we it wasn't our intention to dig into why people in the industry might be feeling stressed. But we did ask a couple of questions at the end to collect some sample data to get a better insight. And the sample data told us that the leading cause, according to the people that took the survey of stress and recruitment industry, and in the job was leadership and management. And that tied back to expectations. And some of it like we've discussed previously, I don't think it's done with the wrong intention. No, I think that sometimes there's an assumption that, you know, we're, we're just getting on with it, we're running the business, trust us to do it. We don't need to do that with you. That's your job, you do your job. And they I think so many businesses, business owners, leaders don't understand that the transparency piece that we talked about is so so key in building trust, and the transparency leads to better communication, better communication is better at defining of expectations. And it all feeds in together, which is why a bang on so much about mental health and well being, you know, needing to be a core part of any Leadership Development Framework, because it's all about getting the best out of your people. And for me, it's very, very simple. You know.
I know, but here's the thing, I think, this is why sometimes I look at, you know, my background as a nutritionist, but also coming into this space, looking at well being and overall health and overall--But you know, mental health, including that, and over, overall well being, I always find that when something's really simple, people are like, it's gonna be more complicated. And I was like, no, it's really, really simple.
We want it to be more complicated, right?
We want it to be more complicated, because if it's simple, we should be really doing it right, we kind of have that judgment piece where it's like, it can't be this easy, this complex problem, you know, can't just be as simple as being transparent. But showing vulnerability, listening, listening to understand not just listening to respond, listening to understand your employee to really get it. And it might take multiple times to have the same conversation over and over in different ways to understand that person's needs and what they're actually what they need. But it's it's needed. It's all about communication and understanding individuals and individual needs. And also stop managing, like just to blanket management. Like I think that that's a huge thing, I think, understand the individual people in your team and what they need and how they need to be supported. I remember when I when I was working in sales, wasn't in recruitment in a different sales job. My manager that tried to manage me the same way should manage everybody else, but I really like to just be left alone, and I'd come to you if I'd made a mistake or if I needed help. And that was my best way of management because if you tried to micromanage me or do something different or feel like you needed to be with me maybe not micromanage but needed to be next me all the time, you're gonna distract me and it's not wasn't going to be the best for me. But understanding.
Understanding piece right there. (Yes.) Understanding that, you know, again, what is the why somebody sat next to you what there's, there's a miscommunication here about expectations, what is that from you, but you're right, because I'm a firm believer if if you cannot tap into an individual's drivers and motivators will not go above and beyond for you and above and beyond just this discretionary effort piece. And we know that as an economy, we lose billions in discretionary effort every every year. And that's why, for me, it ties into the business case and that understanding, I think, what's very, very interesting and anybody listening that might be able to relate to this is you know, if you run a business and you've been running a business throughout these three lockdowns, and you you've, you know, you've kind of gone through a bit of a journey. I know some leaders have been very honest with me, and they've said, Well, no, we didn't really talk to the workforce because our priority was battening down the hatches and making sure the business was going to be okay. And they just got off and they just did it. And of course, they didn't factor in the level of uncertainty that that would cause and that but but again, you know, hindsight is a beautiful thing. And the third cycle, they can now understand the value in having those conversations. And again, it's that environmental piece, it's the keep talking about psychological safety, and the, that, and the all of these things, you know, create not only a strong organizational culture, but a culture of resilience as well, a culture of coming together to, you know, you know, what, a group of bamboo using your--- than a single thing of grass or single, whatever the singular.
I am not into planting, maybe maybe Wolva will know, I'm pretty sure he's watching Wolva's my fiance, for those of you who don't know, um, but yeah, no, it's, it's building a culture of resilience, not an individual, and individuals have to be resilient. And understanding how to build that resilience up in your team is really, really important. And understanding that individuals do need needs. And I think that's the one thing that we keep coming back to is know people individually, and actually band together. And I think you said something really interesting in regards to you know, people battening, you know, you know, batten down the hatches, and we're trying to survive the business. So the employees still have their job, it's like, these employees might leave, and they might not have any idea because they don't have no idea what's going on, they feel really uncertain, they feel really left out in the lurch. And you're going to come back to very disgruntled, very burnt out very tired, very frustrated employees when things do open. So it's being able to, you know, just imagine you've you've, you've heard nothing from an ex boyfriend, or saw or heard nothing from an ex boyfriend or girlfriend or something like that. And then all of a sudden, my message, you go, Hey, how's it going? Like, come back? And let's, let's let's join our relationship. Again, it's like,
Woah, woah there!
Woah, slow it down! Need to have that constant communication?
Yes. And you know, what else you need to do? You need to let people fail? And yeah, let them fail safely? (Yes) This is part of the resilience piece in an organization. This is the part of the bouncing back, you know, if again, individuals feel that they can't, if they can't fail without recriminations, then they're not necessarily going to lean into that discomfort to try and overcome these challenges in a particular way. So that that's really, really vital with our people. And that comes down to the good leadership and empowering them and an understanding that sometimes, sometimes, the decisions aren't always going to be the right one, but the attitude and the outcome, and the intention that that employer had in mind, right. Here we go every time I'm on a live, never happy unless they're part of any LinkedIn live that I do my German Shepherd. So apologies for that.
Oh bless. But no, I think that the failing piece is so important. And the intention piece is also really important there as well. I think a lot of the times when we're looking at failure, and I remember personally, like I've run two to three businesses that failed. And I remember wearing that, and I was, I didn't have somebody that, you know, go to me, you know, as well, right? Like, you made a mistake, it's not the end of the world, I reckon I would have saved a few of my businesses, if I'd actually didn't live in that all or nothing mentality. And some things that I speak to a lot of recruiters about is they have this all or nothing mentality, and they take that mentality into everything that they do. And being able to fail or try something new, or be able to be able to develop a new skill is so important and get rid of, can I just say, we need to get rid of this whole language of we've always done it this way, we, you know, we're gonna continue doing it this way. If you have an employee that wants to try something a little bit different, do something a little bit of left of center, allow them that's going to motivate them. And if they fail, don't go. I told you. So go. I'm glad you tried something new. That's really cool. You're obviously showing that you know, you're showing that drive to be able to be better in your job, because that's all I really want. I just need that and looking back again. Maybe that didn't work that way. Is there another way to look at it?
Or, in contrast to that as well, explain to people why it can't necessarily be done in that way.
Yeah. Don't just brush it aside and suggest that no, no, no, that's not a good idea. Explain. Communicate. Back to the transparency because sometimes it's not possible to do that if you (Oh, yeah, of course.) Yeah. And but yeah, so I completely agree, me and you get all very, very passionate very RAH! I'm wondering how this looks on the outside.
We have been asked a question, but I think it was from a little while ago, but I'll pop it up, which is how do I feel about leaving your phone outside your bedroom? I am I am. I'm for this.
I kind of am but my phones my alarm. You know.
Get an old school alarm.
I know. Memories when I was 15 you know the ones that go AH AH AH! Sounds like a duck being tortured. But yeah, you're right. You know, you're you're absolutely right. I think this is something that we would expect our teenage daughters to do. We tried to say to them phones on the landing. But then we don't necessarily do that ourselves how many people like that?